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Bush and Putin suggest potential for World War III BDSM as business: An interview with the owners of a dungeon With Abu Ghraib, torture and waterboarding featured so often in the headlines, Wikinews went out to investigate torture in American popular culture. This is the first of a two part series examining the BDSM business, which focuses on the owners of an S&M dungeon, what they charge, what goes on, what the clients are like and how they handle their needs.

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Mass suspensions and relief of duties after US B-52 flew with armed nuclear missiles According to Pentagon officials, nearly 70 United States Air Force personnel and high ranking officials have been relieved from command and or duty after an incident on August 30 when a U.S. B-52H bomber plane flew from Minot Air Force Base located in North Dakota to Louisiana with six armed AGM-129 ACM nuclear missiles.

Wikipedia Current Events
Polish Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski is conceding defeat as exit polls give Donald Tusk's Civic Platform a large lead over his ruling nationalists in the parliamentary elections. Kimi Räikkönen wins the 2007 Formula One World Drivers Championship. 2007 Daglica incident: Kurdish rebels kill at least 12 Turkish soldiers and wounded 11 others on Sunday in an ambush in mountains near the Iraqi border, security sources said. The attack was one of the worst in more than a decade by rebels of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK and will put pressure on Turkey to send troops into northern Iraq to hunt down the rebels. Soyuz TMA-10 lands safely outside Arkalyk, 340 kilometers (211 mi) short of the planned landing site in Kazakhstan, due to a computer glitch. 2007 Ogaden conflict: A rebel group in eastern Ethiopia, the Ogaden National Liberation Front, says it has carried out an attack on government troops, killing 140 troops. Swiss voters go to the polls for the Swiss federal election, 2007. Three of the Peoples Republic of China's top politicians, namely, Vice-President Zeng Qinghong, anti-corruption chief Wu Guanzheng, and Luo Gan, are dropped from the Communist Party of China's Central Committee. Also retiring are Vice-Premier Wu Yi, Vice-Premier Zeng Peiyan, and Defence Minister Cao Gangchuan. Hu's Scientific Development Concept is enshrined in the Party Constitution.

Turkey preparing for incursion into Iraq after PKK militants kill 17 soldiers
As many as 17 Turkish soldiers were killed and 16 were injured in an ambush after Iraqi Kurdish militants (PKK) attacked the patrol in Hakkari Province on the Iraq-Turkey border. As a result, a large battle erupted and at least 32 Kurdish militants were killed.

"Although it respects Iraq's territorial integrity, Turkey will not tolerate that terrorism be aided and abetted and will not be afraid to pay, whatever the price may be, to protect its rights, its indivisible unity and its citizens. The fight against the separatist terrorist organization will be waged with determination until the very end," said Turkey's top officials in a statement issued to the media, after an emergency meeting was held in regards to the battle.

Turkey has been building up troops along its border with Iraq with reports suggesting as many as 60,000 are currently stationed there. On ..., Turkey approved a measure that would send troops into Iraq to take out PKK militants, but on Sunday an official said that the incursion into Iraq was not urgent.

"There are plans to cross the border, but not urgently. We'd like to do these things with the Americans," said Turkish defense minister, Vecdi Gonul.

The U.S. has stated repeatedly that they are against any military action against the PKK and believe that it would cause even more instability in the region.

"These attacks are unacceptable and must stop now. Attacks from Iraqi territory need to be dealt with swiftly by the Iraqi government and Kurdish regional authorities," said a spokesman for U.S. President George W. Bush, Gordon Johndroe.

Iraq has spoken out against the attacks by the PKK and has condemned any such attacks on Turkish soldiers saying "Iraq's parliament unanimously votes to condemn the threat of using force to solve the dispute. It feels that the Turkish parliament's decision to use force does not boost bilateral relations."

Leaders in the Kurdish controlled areas of Iraq state that any attack on them would be met with retaliation.

Aerosmith sued over late cancellation of gig in Maui, Hawaii
Fans of the American hard rock band Aerosmith have launched legal action in relation to a late cancellation of a concert in Maui, Hawaii.

The suit was launched on October 19 in state Circuit Court as a class action suit by attorney Brandee Faria, who estimates that the cancellation cost fans between $500,000 (€349,944) and $3 million (€2.1 million) in travel and accomodation costs, as well as other related expenses.

The band had canceled the sold-out September 26 performance, which had been planned months before as the final show of a world tour started in April in Brazil, on the basis that they could not make it to the island in time after a Septmeber 24 gig in Chicago with an 18,000-strong crowd - which had been rescheduled at the last minute on September 14 from September 10, after the original date of that gig had itself been cancelled.

The band cancelled the show at Maui's War Memorial Stadium, which was set to be attended by 9,000 people, and apologised to fans. HK Management Inc., the band's management company, gave no initial reason when they canceled on September 20, but had stated logistical resasons by the next day. However, just days later on September 29 the band went to nearby Honolulu, another Hawaiian island, to play in front of a corporate audience of 6,000 car dealers and private guests at an event organised by Toyota to celebrate their 50th anniversary at the University of Hawaii. Toyota payed $500,000 (€349,944) to hire the campus, and Aerosmith were payed $1 million (€700,000) to perform. Faria alledges that Aerosmith abandoned the less well payed gig in Mauri in favour of events which payed better.

"...Defendants simply canceled the only public performance by Aerosmith in favor of the larger Chicago venue and the lucrative, private concert for the Toyota car dealers," the complaint states.

Local officials had hoped the concert would attract other big names to the island.

Faria said that "I've had people contact me being out of pocket at much as $800 or $900," adding that if the cancellation is found to be deceptive ticket holders may be eligible for a minimum of $1,000 each. The complaint also says that those aged 62 or over should receive at least $5,000 each. Currently about a dozen ticket holders are involved with the suit. If the action is approved by a judge, steps will be taken to contact everyone who bought a ticket.

Kimi Räikkönen wins 2007 Brazilian Grand Prix and the 2007 Championship
Ferrari driver Kimi Räikkönen wins the FIA Formula-1 2007 Grande Prêmio do Brasil at Autódromo José Carlos Pace, São Paulo, Brazil. Iceman smiled on the first place of the podium as the 2007 Championship in full went to his team. Finally, the highly controversial and enthralling 2007 season came to an unexpected close. It was Ferrari who catched the Constructors' championship at Belgian Grand Prix from McLaren team and now ended their drivers domination.

The weekend starts by Felipe Massa won the pole position, proving himself able to win his home race for the second time since 2006. McLaren Mercedes driver Lewis Hamilton, showed second result aiming to secure his first place in the championship.

Still, the start became just a first nuisance for Lewis, when Massa and Kimi together closed the gate for him and in the next turn his teammate Fernando Alonso pushed Lewis out of the track. Lewis rolled back, but after eight laps suffered a bigger problem with his gearbox losing even more positions.

It became clear by that time that not only Fernando, but even Kimi, has a chance to win the season. The possibly last word was said by Massa, who returned from second pit stop to give up the lead to Kimi. Some flying laps by the Finn and he secured his win of the race.

Lewis was also flying though. Like Michael Schumacher chasing Alonso in 2006 he overtook a number of drivers as McLaren changed his flight plan to three pit stops. But this was actually not enough to prevent Kimi of winning the season with 110 points, only 1 crucial point ahead both Alonso and Hamilton (109 pts).

The closing stages of the race saw a battle of Nico Rosberg's Williams-Toyota car with both BMW Sauber, German driver stayed in front of Robert Kubica and Nick Heidfeld.

Lewis finished only 7th in one lap behind the leader. Top eight closed by Jarno Trulli's Toyota, last driver who was overtaken by no more a rooky Hamilton.

Kurd rebel ambush kills 16 Turkish soldiers
HAKKARI, Turkey - Kurdish terrorists killed 16 and wounded 17 Turkish soldiers in an ambush Sunday in the mountainous southeast of the country, security sources said. Turkish forces respond by killing 23 PKK terrorists, government says.

Clashes erupted after a large group of Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) terrorists, infiltrating from northern Iraq, attacked the soldiers shortly after midnight Sunday, said a statement on the general staff's Internet site.

The pro-Kurdish Firat news agency, based in Belgium, later said terrorists also took several Turkish soldiers hostage.

"Our anger, our hatred is great," Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said on national television. He said the government would hold an emergency meeting later Sunday and would take "an approach that is calm, far from agitation and based on common sense."

The Turkish military shelled the border area in an attempt to prevent the fighters from fleeing to northern Iraq.

The PKK has been labelled a terrorist organisation by Turkey, the US and the EU.

2007 Hope Parade in Taiwan inconjuncted with creation and environment awareness
With resource reusing, environment awareness, and creations, Jane Goodall Institute Taiwan held "2007 Hope Parade" in Taiwan and lots of environment volunteers, community colleges, and charity organizations (approximately more than 10,000 people) participated this parade walking from Taipei Municipal Hsing-an Elementary School to Ketagalan Boulevard with some materials showing the presence of 5 continentals.

"To respond with theory of 'Roots & Shoots' by Dr. Jane Goodall, 'Roots & Shoots Program' in Taiwan has been promoted for a long time with the living quality improving and environment awareness valuing." Hau Lung-pin (Taipei City Mayor) remarked at Opening.

According to the organizer, this parade is originally founded with some communities in Xizhi, Taipei County. To expand the global view of environment respect, this parade is chosen at Taipei City to show the particularity and differences of creatures which should be cared by common people.

Wildfires burn in southern California
Wildfires in Malibu, California, USA have forced the evacuation of several celebrity homes, as well as the campus of Pepperdine University. High winds and low humidity in the area have only helped to strengthen the fire.

Additionally, firefighters are currently having a difficult time getting in to Mailbu, as the only road that leads in to the area is the Pacific Coast Highway, which often sees heavy traffic, although it has been closed between Kanan Road and Topanga Canyon Boulevard. Currently, 200 firefighters are working on fighting the blaze. The fire has burned more than 1200 acres so far and 3 homes have been lost with others damaged, however there have been no reported injuries or deaths.

Other Southern California wildfires are burning in Agua Dulce, Chatsworth, and Castaic.

2007/08 Scottish Premier League: Rangers vs. Celtic
The first Old Firm Derby of the 2007-08 Scottish Premier League ended in a 3-0 victory for Rangers over Celtic.

The result brings the two clubs level on points at the top of the table, although Rangers are ranked second on goal difference.

The first chance of the match fell to Celtic when Scott McDonald, who played as a lone striker, tried an overhead kick which went wide. However Rangers took the lead when Nacho Novo headed a goal just inside the half hour mark. Barry Ferguson scored Rangers' second goal soon after half time, while Novo scored a penalty to add their third with ten minutes remaining.

Rangers manager Walter Smith had claimed last season's derby victories over Celtic meant nothing, because Celtic were already Scottish champions in theory. This result could determine if Rangers win the championship, but Smith said that there was a "long way to go" before the title could be decided. Celtic manager Gordon Strachan said that his side had failed to take the chances they made.

2007 Alcon Taiwan Hiking focuses on reducing computing hours
After "Taiwan Orbis & Standard Chartered Bank Charity Walking" last week at Guandu Nature Park, the main organizer Alcon Taiwan held a hiking activity with "Love Your Eyes Without Computing" topic at Taipei Municipal Fude Elementary School and Tiger Mountain Trail in Taipei City, Taiwan. This is the third year Alcon Taiwan held a similar activity after hiking last year and 5KM running around Taipei City Hall 2 years ago.

At the Press Conference 2 weeks ago, Alcon Taiwan announced a qustionare about "Acknowledgment on Eye-Caring and Eyes for PC Screen in Taiwan". According to the questionare, lots of people especially younger people watched PC screen more than 7 hours and caused a bad phenomenon in Taiwan. That's why Alcon Taiwan named this hiking activity slogan as "Love Your Eyes Without Computing". Alcon Taiwan hoped people in Taiwan can reduce computing hours and rest appropriately.

The main organizer invited Taiwanese famous entertainer Sun Peng and Di Ying supporting and named as "Eye-Caring Ambassadors". Sun mentioned on restrictions and policies with his family to keep a good eyesight at their family. He hoped his children have a bright future with a good eyesight.

"With a serious condition on red-eye symptom in Taiwan, lots of people may have a worse result without correct treatments and acknowledgments, if anyone affected this symptom, that one should go to hospital for the treatment with medical professionals", Sheng-mou Ho (Minister of Department of Health, Executive Yuan of R.O.C., Taiwan) remarked. "The ages of nearsightedness people is progressively decreasing, it caused diopters of younger people increasing progressively. Parents should tell their children about correct acknowledgments on eye-caring for their future."

After the hiking activity, organizers and sponsors set gaming and eye checking-up booths for participants and also held seminars to provide the how-to with good eyesight keeping. In the main stage, not only shows and performances, the organizer also held a creative modeling show to encourage participants absorbing good nutritions for a good eyesight.

First non-white Governor elected in Louisiana in over 100 years
On Saturday, it was announced that the first non-white Governor had been elected for the State of Louisiana in the United States in over 100 years. He is also the youngest Governor ever elected in Louisiana.

Bobby Jindal, 36, an Indian-American and Republican, won the election receiving 54% of the votes, with the nearest opponent, Walter Boasso having only 18% of all votes.

"Let's give our homeland, the great state of Louisiana, a fresh start. They can either go quietly or they can go loudly, but either way, they will go," said Jindal during his victory speech. He plans to improve education throughout the state and cut taxes.

The local and statewide results from Louisiana's primary election yesterday have cast doubt upon the theory that the Republican Party was injured politically from the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

Thousands flee renewed violence in Congo
Thousands of civilians fled their homes on Saturday amid fierce fighting between local militias and Tutsi-dominated rebels in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, according to the U.N. peacekeeping mission there.

Congolese Army Colonel Delphin Kahimbi said that "very violent attacks" had been reported, and that the fighting was between local militia known as Mai-Mai and rebels loyal to renegade Tutsi general Laurent Nkunda. Major P.K. Tiwari, a military spokesman for the U.N. peacekeeping mission, said the fighting "started early this morning and ended late this afternoon." Tiwari said it was not clear who had attacked first.

Sylvie Van Den Wildenberg, a spokeswoman for the U.N. peacekeeping mission, described the suffering of civilians caught in the fighting as "unbearable". "What I saw was horrendous. It was raining. They didn't know where to go. Three women gave birth while they were fleeing," she said. "The humanitarian consequences of whatever is happening there are very serious."

Since the beginning of the year, 370,000 people have already fled their homes in the province of Nord-Kivu amid fighting between Congo's army, Rwandan Hutu rebels, and rebels loyal to Nkunda. Nkunda accuses Congo's army of supporting the Democratic Forces for the Liberation of Rwanda, a primarily Hutu rebel group that includes soldiers responsible for the 1994 Rwandan Genocide. The Congolese army consistently denies this charge.

In a press conference on Wednesday, Congolese President Joseph Kabila said the army had been authorized to prepare military operations to disarm Nkunda's rebels, of which there are approximately 5,000. Kabila has ruled out the possibility of negotiating with Nkunda.

BDSM as business: An interview with the owners of a dungeon

Torture proliferates American headlines today: whether its use is defensible in certain contexts and the morality of the practice. Wikinews reporter David Shankbone was curious about torture in American popular culture. This is the first of a two part series examining the BDSM business. This interview focuses on the owners of a dungeon, what they charge, what the clients are like and how they handle their needs.

When Shankbone rings the bell of "HC & Co." he has no idea what to expect. A BDSM (Bondage Discipline Sadism Masochism) dungeon is a legal enterprise in New York City, and there are more than a few businesses that cater to a clientèle that wants an enema, a spanking, to be dressed like a baby or to wear women's clothing. Shankbone went to find out what these businesses are like, who runs them, who works at them, and who frequents them. He spent three hours one night in what is considered one of the more upscale establishments in Manhattan, Rebecca's Hidden Chamber, where according to The Village Voice, "you can take your girlfriend or wife, and have them treated with respect—unless they hope to be treated with something other than respect!"

When Shankbone arrived on the sixth floor of a midtown office building, the elevator opened up to a hallway where a smiling Rebecca greeted him. She is a beautiful forty-ish Long Island mother of three who is dressed in smart black pants and a black turtleneck that reaches up to her blond-streaked hair pulled back in a bushy ponytail. "Are you David Shankbone? We're so excited to meet you!" she says, and leads him down the hall to a living room area with a sofa, a television playing an action-thriller, an open supply cabinet stocked with enema kits, and her husband Bill sitting at the computer trying to find where the re-release of Blade Runner is playing at the local theater. "I don't like that movie," says Rebecca.

Perhaps the most poignant moment came at the end of the night when Shankbone was waiting to be escorted out (to avoid running into a client). Rebecca came into the room and sat on the sofa. "You know, a lot of people out there would like to see me burn for what I do," she says. Rebecca is a woman who has faced challenges in her life, and dealt with them the best she could given her circumstances. She sees herself as providing a service to people who have needs, no matter how debauched the outside world deems them. They sat talking mutual challenges they have faced and politics (she's supporting Hillary); Rebecca reflected upon the irony that many of the people who supported the torture at Abu Ghraib would want her closed down. It was in this conversation that Shankbone saw that humanity can be found anywhere, including in places that appear on the surface to cater to the inhumanity some people in our society feel towards themselves, or others.

"The best way to describe it," says Bill, "is if you had a kink, and you had a wife and you had two kids, and every time you had sex with your wife it just didn't hit the nail on the head. What would you do about it? How would you handle it? You might go through life feeling unfulfilled. Or you might say, 'No, my kink is I really need to dress in women's clothing.' We're that outlet. We're not the evil devil out here, plucking people off the street, keeping them chained up for days on end."

Below is David Shankbone's interview with Bill & Rebecca, owners of Rebecca's Hidden Chamber, a BDSM dungeon.

David Shankbone: What first attracted you to this business?

Bill: Nothing other than it seemed like it would be profitable; we had a third partner who knew someone who was involved in this business. It was supposed to be a business that we weren't going to run, if you recall.

Rebecca: Right.

Bill: We were going to be absentee. Nothing but money.

DS: You would provide start-up costs and get it going?

Bill: Precisely. But there were some setbacks; we ended up running it ourselves, learning a lot about the business and doing it really well. I had a doctorate in psychology; my wife is probably the best salesperson I've ever seen in the world. Together, we've been able to put together a nice model business. We're probably the best S&M-fantasy-role-playing dungeon in Manhattan. We are that way because we think of the client first. What makes us different than all the other dungeons: we treat them like human beings first.

Rebecca: We're not--the typical.

Bill: We are atypical.

Rebecca: Right.

DS: What makes you atypical?

Bill: A couple of things. We run it like a business. We do not run it like a club. We did our homework and found most of the places in the city are run by people that aren't the smartest, aren't the sanest, aren't great businesspeople; they don't have a business background. They are people more inclined to be interested in S&M. Where my wife and I, we're sort of interested in money first.

DS: You don’t a have personal interest in S&M?

Bill: No, I don't. I do not.

Rebecca: [Shakes her head no]

DS: How is it that you're able to run a business that's centered around S&M and caters to those clients, when you don't have that inclination for yourselves?

Bill: Good question for you.

Rebecca: We're still looking out for their needs. They're still human beings, and they have needs. So each and every person, I look out for their needs. And they all think I'm their best friend.

Their home life

DS: What do your kids feel about this as a business?

Bill: They don't know.

Rebecca: They don't know. That's why we want to be anonymous.

DS: What would they think?

Bill: I don't know, but I don't think it'd be healthy.

Rebecca: I think my almost-seventeen-year-old would be okay with it. My middle one I don't think would be very happy, and my youngest would probably want to do it.

DS: What do they think you do?

Bill: They know I'm a psychologist.

DS: Do you have a practice?

Bill: I haven't for a long time. They know I have some other businesses as well; we run some other businesses.

DS: Kids just don’t care what their parents do.

Rebecca: Right. Exactly. But in a way, I feel like I'm mothering thirty girls sometimes.

DS: Is that taxing on you?

Rebecca: It's exhausting.

Bill: That's why people can't do this business.

DS: How do you handle that?

Rebecca: Sometimes, some days I go home and cry.

DS: So when people bring problems into work, which happens in any workplace, you're the one that they probably turn to.

Rebecca: Yeah.

DS: Do either of you think ever of leaving this business?

Bill: Yeah, we will.

Rebecca: We will at some point.

Bill: I'll retire and live off my millions.

Rebecca: At this point, I--we've worked so hard. I mean, at the beginning, I didn't think I'd actually be proud of it. Now it's something--

Bill: We have a lot of people that depend on us here. A lot of girls we put through grad school, a lot of girls. We've lent money to a lot of people here; we've helped out a lot of people--we've done that.

Rebecca: It's so much part of who I am, and I would never believe that it was actually me. I would never have thought this would be part of who I am, and at this point it is.

DS: But your kids know you work nights. What do you tell them when you're leaving?

Rebecca: I just try to tell them--I try to condense my work so that I can be home with them also.

DS: But what do they think that you're doing?

Rebecca: Work.

DS: Work. Just--generic work?

Rebecca: I am doing work.

Bill: A non-issue. I have an advertising business as well, a little advertising business.

DS: I got you. So it's just we're going to work on the business.

Rebecca: Right.

Bill: Since Rebecca works in the advertising business anyway, she might be there at another time, so it doesn't really matter.

Rebecca: I'm a really bad liar, so I tell them, "I'm working." I really am working.

DS: Yeah.

Bill: She's not always here. She may be at the advertising, doing some stuff, working with some print ads. So it's kind of nice to be able to tell the truth that way--

Rebecca: You know, so I'll--maybe I'll bring some papers with me and stuff, but I really am working. So--work is work.

Operating the business

The costs

Bill: There's a misconception in this industry. Your exposure to this is probably primarily what you see in movies, scanning magazines, scanning the Internet, just snippets everywhere. It's portrayed as though it's dark, black and evil. And--

Rebecca: Oh man, well?

Bill: What's up?

Rebecca: I do wear a lot of black.

DS: [chuckles]

Bill: It's anything but that. If you look at the rooms, there's all the accouterments you'd find in these types of places--but more than anything, there's a lot of good feeling around here. We hire the opposite of what you'd think we would hire, what the average person would think we would hire. We hire educated, nice people.

Rebecca: I remember one of our ads that I had put in said, "If you think nice girls don't do S&M,"--I forgot what the rest of it said--

Bill: “--think again.”

Rebecca: Yeah, "think again" or something like that. And that ad had pulled so many girls, because they--I think they all thought that nice girls don't do this. And a bunch of them had called and they said, "Wow." And I think I remember, a bunch of guys called because of that also. Do you remember?

Bill: I sure do, I sure do.

DS: What are the startup costs involved?

Bill: It varies; look around Manhattan, look around rents, look around buildouts, look around hiring, look around advertising...

DS: What's your greatest non-fixed cost?

Bill: The single most costly thing we spend on is rent and advertising, those two together make up the bulk of what we spend. There's supplies, and there's wear and tear and maintenance, and bookkeeping and things like that that you have to do. That's about it. The hardest thing in running this business, which is why people can't do it, is the relationship that my wife has with the gals and with the customers.

DS: Where do you advertise?

Bill: A lot on the web, we've used most of the local city papers, New York Press, things like that, L Magazine.

DS: In the back of the paper?

Bill: Typically in the back of the paper. Magazines constantly change their policy on it; they want it, they don't want it…

Rebecca: Depending on the election year--

Bill: Who's buying the paper, who's selling the paper. So it changes, so one year we got to be in the Press, but they have now stopped adult ads.

Rebecca: Completely.

Bill: So now we'll be in the Voice for a while. We're moving more towards the Internet at this point, because the Internet is a much easier, safer way for a person to look at sensitive material and not get caught with it.

Hiring employees

Personality test questions given to prospective mistresses.

Bill: Pursuant to your business question: we only hire nice people. I don't care if a girl is absolutely exquisite looking--

Rebecca: My husband has met beautiful, beautiful girls--

Bill: --beautiful girls--

Rebecca: --and he's in the end, he would say, "Well, I won't hire them." I'm like, ‘Are you insane?

Bill: I won't hire them. I hire--

DS: Why not?

Bill: Because I want someone who's going to treat people nicely and well. We have--

DS: How can you tell whether they will or will not? Just by talking to them?

Bill: Having been a psychologist for a number of years gives me a leg up on it.

Rebecca: And he's been right. And I have made him hire these girls, and ultimately he's been right They've been complete pain in the asses!

Bill: I also have a profile they fill out for me, a mini-MMPI that I developed, so that I have an idea--Rebecca and I put it together

Rebecca: I don't know if you'd like to see one.

Bill: No, no, no. Just--

Rebecca: I could show you.

Bill: So I have a mini-MMPI that I--

DS: Could I have a sample, not necessarily one that's filled out, but just one that you--

Rebecca: I'll show you.

Bill: Sure. The questions are--

Rebecca: Be careful. He'll make you fill one out.

DS: [laughs] You'd be scared. You wouldn't hire me. Is it only girls you hire?

Rebecca: Yeah.

DS: [Looking at list of questions] What would a question like "the greatest woman in the world" reveal to you?

Bill: No question would reveal anything independently of all the questions together--

DS: Sure.

Bill: --but I have a chart that I'll go through; the MMPI. The baseline data that I use to--

DS: How did you originate these questions?

Bill: Where did I make them? You get a baseline from asking girls and refining profiles--

DS: And it's an amalgamation of questions.

Bill: Of many, many questions--

Rebecca: What's your favorite question? I don't know, the O.J. Simpson . . . .

DS: Yeah, I see O.J. Simpson. What would that be an indicator of?

Bill: I'm not sure which one you gave him, but there's a brief, brief, brief IQ test there. Very brief.

DS: Do you ask for references?

Bill: No, because I really can't call and tell them I'm [laughs] yeah, so-and-so's applying here for a position.

The prices

DS: What does it typically cost for a session?

Bill: In the two hundred dollar range.

DS: And there's lower, and there's higher?

Rebecca: Right.

Bill: Yeah, mostly.

DS: Depending on what they want to do?

Bill: Exactly. A little lower. Mostly higher.

DS: What would be the most expensive thing that someone would ask for?

Rebecca: Competitive wrestling.

Bill: Multi-girl sessions.

DS: Multi-girl? And what would they do in that?

Bill: What did you charge the one guy? Eight hundred dollars an hour for--

Rebecca: For a few girls.

Bill: Three girls, you said?

DS: Three girls would be eight hundred dollars an hour?

Rebecca: Something like that.

DS: And does it vary based upon what they're asking for?

Bill: Yes.

Rebecca: Yes.

DS: What would be an expensive, and what would be a cheap thing?

Rebecca: It just varies, there's so much--I mean, tickling can be $210 for the hour--

Bill: But the prices change--

Rebecca: Right.

Bill: --as we go up, so whatever you put in Wikipedia--

DS: Sure.

Bill: By next year, it's gonna be all new. But probably say for your article, it's two plus--

DS: And for an expensive thing? What would be something that's--

Bill: It can go up to a thousand, two thousand, we've had--

DS: What kind of an experience would that be that someone asks--?

Bill: Usually multi-girls--

DS: But what would they do--multi-girls, just . . . . Like some--

Bill: The sky’s the guy. There's no intercourse, there's no--

DS: Intercourse is completely off.

Rebecca: Completely off.

DS: What about orgasms?

Bill: They do.

Rebecca: But they do themselves.

DS: They're allowed orgasms.

Bill: Sure.

DS: And that's typical?

Rebecca: That's completely typical.

Bill: But there's no sex.

The clients

DS: What are your clients like?

Bill: We cater to a human being first. If you came in here, and you were a client and had to use the bathroom, before you gave me dollar one--

Rebecca: This is a true story, by the way.

Bill: You could use our bathroom and leave. Sometimes when I hire girls, I'll ask them if they want to use the bathroom, because I know it's Manhattan. And I've had to go sometimes really bad, and just can't find a bathroom. And they look at me like I'm strange, like I have a peephole or something in there.

We hired a young lady when we first started doing this--I won't mention names—and a guy came in. He was standing there hopping on both feet, back and forth, because he had to use the bathroom. She wouldn't let him use the bathroom, because in her mind, he was a slave. Now, everybody who comes in here are people first, and then they're--whatever their fetish is.

Rebecca: And she would let him know when it was appropriate for him to use the bathroom.

DS: And he didn't like that?

Rebecca: Well, he was so used to that being the way that it was--

DS: It was acceptable to him.

Rebecca: Right, but that's not the way we are.

DS: And you don’t want that to be a slippery slope. That's not the kind of clientèle that you really want…

Rebecca: No.

Bill: We have a very, very good clientèle. We are upscale--

DS: What's your typical client?

Bill: Looks like you. Looks like you.

DS: For typical client "John." Who is John? What is his background, what is he coming here for, what's he looking for?

Bill: There is no typical client. I know you're looking for generalities. There is no typical client in terms of what fetish he's looking for. They're like snowflakes. I'm not in on the sessions. I hear from my wife. I'm always asking questions. There is no typical role play fetish. You might want to get dressed up in a red dress. I might want to get dressed up in a blue dress. I might want to wear high heels; you might want a pair of pumps. You might want a whip; everything is different.

DS: So each person that approaches you at first, you don't really know what they're going to look for? Do you have ideas like, "Mmm--I bet this is this kind of guy"? Or is it just completely difficult to tell?

Rebecca: It's completely difficult to tell. And a lot of times I don't even have them ask me. I don't even have them tell me. I wait until they--I just have them come in the room, and I introduce them to the girls; they meet the girls, and then--

DS: They choose one?

Rebecca: They choose one or two, and then they get--

DS: How many girls typically work on one night?

Rebecca: Anywhere between four to eight.

DS: And whoever's not currently engaged will be there.

Rebecca: Even the girls that are busy will sometimes just come in to say, "Hi, how are you?"

DS: How large is your client base?

Bill: That's a good question. Would you say thousands?

Rebecca: Thousands.

DS: Of repeat people.

Rebecca: Yes.

Bill: That come at different times, and--

Rebecca: And I probably know ninety percent of them.

DS: How many times would a regular be considered?

Bill: Once a month? Once every two months? Do you have guys every six months? You have guys every six months, right?

Rebecca: More than that.

Bill: No, no, you can--If you had ten thou--let's say you had five thousand clients, and they came twice a week.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Bill: That would be--you'd do ten thousand sessions a week. Right? You follow what I'm saying?

Rebecca: No--I do, but I see them more often than that. I can't tell you.

Bill: Okay. Probably we do have guys that come twice a week. Like a regular percentage of them come twice a week. But the bulk of the--

Rebecca: I have guys come every day.

Bill: Do you?

Rebecca: Yeah. I have guys that I know that--every day, 10:30 in the morning, they will be here.

Bill: We have a lot of wealthy, wealthy people who--

Rebecca: I can't tell you how insane of a business it is.

Bill: But what I was trying to tell you is, it's not that we're that great. It's that everybody else out there--

Rebecca: Is that bad. And so unkind. So unsympathetic, and so nasty.

Bill: Are you familiar with Africa and what goes on in Africa and when one warlord takes over, what happens? They get a power hold and they just goes to their heads. Well, that's what happens in these places. You give a twenty-five-year old, thirty-year-old girl in power, and it goes to their head. And so these places, what happens is they get nasty, nasty girls.

DS: Which is not what the clients are coming for.

Rebecca: No.

What happens when a client walks through the door

The two types of business cards a client can take. "We have cards," says Rebecca, "[Ones] that look like dungeon cards [top], which are very pretty and very black, and it looks like what an S&M card should look like. Which nobody takes, or maybe one or two guys take. And then we have cards that are the kind of cards that everybody takes." [bottom]

DS: So I'm that person, and I walk in the door, and I'm nervous as anything--what do you do?

Bill: Right. I let you go to the bathroom--My wife lets you go to the bathroom, because you probably have to pee, because you've been holding it--

DS: Holding it and didn't realize it.

Bill: And you're tense. Yeah.

DS: So then I go to the bathroom.

Rebecca: And the first thing I'm going to tell you is, ’Listen. Meet the girls, find someone you like, it's great!’

DS: So you'll introduce me to the girls first.

Rebecca: Right. But first I'm going to tell you, before that--

DS: You're going to talk to me first. Out there, or in a room?

Rebecca: No, in a room.

Bill: Can I interject --I'll tell you what we won't do: We won't have some six-foot big girl grab you by the scruff of the neck and throw you into a room, and kick you in the ass--

DS: [laughs] Sure, sure.

Rebecca: With a big guy standing outside.

Bill: And make you think, oh, my God. I'm gonna end up dead in a dumpster with nothing in my wallet, and they're going--

DS: What if I'm not ready--too much, too soon. So Rebecca's going to sit down or Alex or whoever's running the place that night is gonna sit down--

Rebecca: Right. Right.

DS: And I'm just-- I'm here, and I'm nervous.

Rebecca: And we say, 'Listen, people come here all the time, and there's lots of lawyers.'

DS: And how do they typically react? How does the conversation usually go?

Rebecca: I would say, "Hi, how are you?" I would say, "Look, I know you're nervous. Relax." I would say, "Meet them, say hello. You don't have to tell them anything that you don't want."

DS: Is it important to have body contact, touching them on the knee or hand, to form a bond?

Rebecca: It depends--I don't want them to--I just say, [taking Shankbone's hand] 'Listen, I know you're nervous. Relax,"--

DS: What if I shrinked away when you did that?

Rebecca: Then, it's okay, it's all right. I say, "If you think you meet someone you like, that's fine. If you don't, that's fine, too. If you feel that tonight's not the night, that's okay." I don't know if you noticed, we have cards that look like dungeon cards, which are very pretty and very black, and it looks like what an S&M card should look like. Which nobody takes, or maybe one or two guys take.

[retrieves two different business cards, see photo] And then we have cards that are the kind of cards that everybody takes.

DS: A bit more discreet.

Rebecca: Right.

DS: So they get to the point where they feel comfortable.

Rebecca: Then they'll say, ’Yeah, but this is what I want--‘ and I say, ‘It's okay, you don't have to say anything to me. The girls will come in, and you can talk to them, if you feel comfortable. Or, if you find one that you really like, you can tell her, and then we'll talk about it.’ And usually, they'll say well--okay, I'll come back, and I'll say, ‘That’s fine, come back in.’ And it's really funny because usually it's in order. I can't figure out why this is--

That's why I need the pen or a pencil in the room. They never say, "The redhead," or "The one with the short blue skirt," or--

DS: What do they say?

Rebecca: It's usually in order. They'll say oh, the third one, or the fourth one. Guys have this thing about in order, which order they are in.

Bill: Really? Right, okay.

Rebecca: It's always that.

Bill: Probably easier for them to remember.

Rebecca: It's a guy thing.

Motivations of the clients

DS: Is it important to establish the motivations of the clients at the outset, such as whether they're looking for something that's a sheer thrill or whether it seems that they are maybe depressed and looking for self-abuse?

Rebecca: No, because that's not who comes. It's not abusive at all to come here. It's somewhere between--

DS: What if they want it to be abusive, though?

Bill: What's abuse in your mind? Is striking someone with a paddle abuse? Is that what you mean--do you mean physical abuse, or--see, we--

DS: Well, that's the idea: I don't know. I think it would be the motivation of the person who's on the receiving end. But there must be people out there who do want abuse--

Rebecca: Right. I'll give you a good example of somebody. There used to be a fellow who used to come in here, and I won't even mention his name, he used to come in here with a big bag, full of really big implements. Frying pans.

Bill: Mention no names.

Rebecca: I mean, really big implements. I mean, he wanted--

DS: Frying pans?

Rebecca: Yeah. He wanted raw emotion; he wanted people to beat the living crap out of him. And, like I said, he wanted raw emotion. He would only come in like once every six, seven months. But he felt that it was a good, healthy outlet for him. He would feel bad about himself, and he got this massive beating two, three times a year, and he was fine. You know, once in my life I was having a tough time and I was feeling pretty crappy. He says, “I get, you know, my good beating, I feel great about myself, and look at you, you're a mess. You're having a tough time.” I said, “You know, you're kind of right.” So who is the better of the two?

DS: So it's not really possible to establish why they're coming in here.

Rebecca: I think most of the time it's somewhere between taking it to the next level of looking at the girl--of looking at the Playboy magazines--and turning the pages. After that, you have the girl lying in front of you, and you're talking to her. Because once they masturbate and it's over, there's still plenty of time in the appointment. They go on and talk about normal things. They dump their problems, they talk about them, and the girls are, you know, listening about it. And that's why Bill said, he doesn't want pictures of all this stuff hanging on the walls. Because the girls can get really emotional. After three, four sessions, five sessions, you kind of get, you know…

Bill: I look at the girls as psychotherapists to a degree. They ferret out what they really want. They need to get close to the person. There's a chemistry between two people that happens quicker in our rooms than it does if you meet somebody for a first date or online.

DS: What if a guy wants a guy? Is it only male clientèle that you have?

Bill: We have couples, we have females.

DS: You have couples. Do you ever have just female?

Bill: Oh yeah.

DS: And you have just male, too.

Bill: Mostly male. But we do have females, and we have couples.

DS: What if they want another male involved, that's not a couple?

Bill: It's not, um--

DS: It's not one of the things that you--

Bill: I don't want to engage in it; it's not safe.

[edit]

Typical requests

The Blue Room, a client favorite. Under the bondage bed are wrestling mats and human toilet furniture.

DS: It's typical that they will orgasm during a session, but do it themselves.

Rebecca: Mostly.

DS: Mostly?

Rebecca: I mean, some men don't have orgasms at all.

DS: Got you. Just more of a psychological thing than it is [related to the] experience. What's typical? Something you would say, ‘Ahh, this is just a standard--‘

Bill: You want to get a bell curve. What's the average session? Somebody getting tied up, spanked?

Rebecca: A foot fetish.

Bill: Foot fetish--

Rebecca: Very, very typical.

DS: I read that recently.

Rebecca: Very. Yeah.

Bill: You've been saying that for a long time--

Rebecca: Well, I saw it not too long ago.

DS: Yeah, I recently saw that foot fetish is like the number one fetish.

Rebecca: Well, it's true.

DS: Is it licking feet? Is it tickling them? Do the girls lick feet?

Bill: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Rebecca: No, the girls don't lick the feet.

DS: They won't lick the feet?

Rebecca: The guys lick.

Bill: The guys--

DS: The guys will lick the feet.

Rebecca: Right. But there's so many things you can do with feet--

DS: Do girls ever act as bottoms in the rooms?

Rebecca: Do girls what?

DS: Ever act as the bottoms.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Bill: He knows that term.

DS: Well, I did my research. [laughs]

Rebecca: Subs. Subs.

DS: Yeah, subs.

Rebecca: Subs, right.

Bill: Yeah, sure. Yup. Yup. Usually pretty mild sessions.

What is not typical

DS: Are there some girls who will not act as a sub?

Rebecca: Yes.

Bill: Yes. I don't want most girls getting bruised--

Rebecca: And that's where we're very, very different; in a lot of places, you don't have a choice.

Bill: We have a theory, and I have a theory. I have girls that come in for jobs, and I told you, I don't hire them--I have one girl that wanted to get like--there was one girl that wanted to get really--one girl, the blonde, and she wanted to get beaten, and this and that--

DS: And that girl's not for you?

Bill: I'll tell you why she's not for me, and I'll tell you what I tell the girls who come here. I don't want anybody--when you get a bruise--if you're involved in this, and you bruise your wife--if you bruise your wife, and you bruise her all up, I don't think that hurts your spirit¬ I think when somebody gets bruised--someone that doesn't love them, doesn't care about them, I think ultimately it tears away at the fabric of their spirit. That's my theory--

Rebecca: The girls here have the complete option to do exactly what they want, and what they don't want. So--

Bill: If you get in here and say, ‘Listen. I want to suspend this girl, and I want to spank her until she's black and blue, and I have a girl that wants to do that, I probably--when I met her and interviewed her, I probably would have told her, don't do it. I don't want you getting black and blue for a number of reasons. Primarily, if you get too black and blue, you're gonna burn out. You're not going to want to do this, and you're not going to feel good about yourself.

Rebecca: But aside from that, there are girls that will do A, B, and C, and there are girls that--

DS: But that probably also attracts a certain clientele that you may not want to have…the bruisers…

Rebecca: Right. Right.

Bill: Right.

Rebecca: But the customers that we have--I mean, there are girls that are not comfortable with complete nudity; there are girls that are not comfortable with having their, let's say, breasts touched--and that's okay. We don't make anybody do anything that they don't feel comfortable with--

Bill: The girls basically can do what they want. If they get to a point where they don't do anything, then nobody's going to take them. So there's hopefully a happy balance--

Rebecca: And there is. And there is, usually.

The environment

DS: Are your employees allowed to meet clients outside of the dungeon?

Bill: No.

Rebecca: No.

DS: How do you control that?

Bill: I have checkers; people that come in. So I kind of know.

Rebecca: But a lot of them don't want to meet people -- they want to keep it in this other situation.

DS: In the workplace.

Rebecca: Right. Right.

DS: Is this one of the rooms that's typically used [We are seated in the yellow room found in the photographs]?

Bill: One of them; one of the less pleasant ones, because there are no windows in it.

Rebecca: But a lot of times they want a room that has nothing to do with S&M.

DS: This one seems very plain, there's a few things in the corner over there--

Rebecca: And behind there, there are clothes...

Bill: Contrary to what you may think, once again, they don't want that black, dark leathery--they want to look--they--where'd you grow up? Where did you grow up?

DS: All over. I've lived in seventeen cities, six states and three countries.

Rebecca: Wow.

Bill: If you grew up in a neighborhood with a cute--did you grow up in a neighborhood?

DS: Yeah, I had many, I had neighborhoods.

Bill: Yeah, cute neighbors--cute older women--girls that you saw when you were growing up, you were fourteen or whatever--in your mind, you didn't think, "I'd love her to take me to a basement, and"--I'm not saying you're into this, you don't have to--

DS: But some people would, right?

Bill: Most would.

DS: Of course. But those people wouldn't also have a desire to come here, right? You're meeting a particular need for a particular segment of the population.

Bill: No question about it. And we have that room, but which is the most popular room? The Blue Room [see photo]? Her and I fight all the time because I want to paint it. I'd like you to see it before you go.

Rebecca: We cannot figure out why that room is so popular--

Bill: We can't.

Rebecca: Actually, one person has told me, it's because the [seals?]--

DS: What's the blue room, first? Can you describe it?

Bill: It's like if you and your wife were into it, and you lived somewhere where you had enough room to make a room like a bondage room. It's a nice, moderate color; there's not that much stuff in it. It looks like we took a living room and threw a bondage table in it, and a cross in there.

DS: Got you. Why is it popular?

Bill: They feel very unthreatened. Assume you came here for a session, okay? And assume you have a wife and your three kids at home; you finally take the plunge to come to a place. You wanna know why we do really, really well, and why we're the leader in this industry? You come here, and you've been calling us, you've been thinking about it, and you're in your mid-thirties and you finally say, ‘You know something? I'm going. I'm just--I'm going.’ You call your wife and you go, ‘Listen, I'm gonna be stuck in the law library tonight, studying.’ You come here and your heart's pounding away; you're going to get treated with dignity, with kid gloves. And you're gonna get treated well. And you're not going to feel like, wow.

Is an S&M dungeon dangerous?

DS: If you introduce the girls and you don't know what the clients want, how do you know that it's going to be a safe situation for one of your employees?

Bill: Because everybody's filmed as they come in. Have you ever been to a topless bar?

DS: No.

Bill: You've never been to a topless bar?

DS: Never been to a topless bar.

Bill: No kidding! Well, if you did, they're probably the safest environment around. Let's assume you came here, and you have a wife at home or a girlfriend or a family, would you want to get into trouble here?

DS: What if they don't? What if they're just a mental case? What if they're a wild card?

Bill: In our dozen years plus, we've never had one.

DS: You've never had one problem

Rebecca: No, no, no, we've not had problems--and any problems--

DS: Can you give me an example of a problem that you've had and how you handled it?

Rebecca: Yeah, a guy that wants his money back, doesn't like the girl. Doesn't happen often.

DS: What happens when that's the case?

Rebecca: We'll give him his money back.

DS: And you've never had a dangerous situation?

Bill: Have we ever had a dangerous situation here?

Rebecca: What do you mean by dangerous?

DS: Instead of dangerous, let's say threatening, where there was concern for either your safety or--

Bill: I want to answer that question by asking you a question. Do you have a preconceived notion that there could be more danger in this business than let's say, a Taco Bell?

DS: I would say that the nature of the desire between eating and the desire for some sort of sexual pleasure, gratification, that there's always more of a chance for a threatening situation. Someone who wants to go for a taco versus someone who wants to go for a BDSM session--

Bill: So, if I told you--

DS: I would say that my notion would be yes, I would think that there is more of a likelihood of a threatening situation. Now, if you're talking about a Taco Bell in the middle of the South Bronx, versus this place, I would say they're probably equal in danger.

Bill: Taco Bell down the block?

DS: A Taco Bell on Park Avenue versus here, I would say that there's more likelihood of a threatening situation occurring in a place like this than in a Taco Bell on Park Avenue.

Bill: If you look at the holdups, and you look at the robberies at Taco Bells, you take it in the metropolitan area and compare it to us, we've had far fewer problems. Never had a holdup, never had a--Anybody ever have a gun or anything like that or a knife?

Rebecca: Well, don't forget I have the dog, and I've always had a dog. Before I had her, I had a black lab. I've always--

Bill: Before you go down that road, David--see, David is inclined, I think, this is what I'm thinking--

DS: I would make an assumption that yes, all things equal, that there might be more of a chance of a dangerous situation happening here. You are rooting around in people’s psychology here.

Bill: You're more likely to get yourself into trouble in a regular straight bar at night, a regular--a local bar at night, than you would at a topless bar.

Rebecca: Maybe because we're not a typical place. I have had clients tell me of places that they've gone to--

DS: Where they didn't feel safe. And that's part of the main business model at Rebecca’s, right? That it needs to be a safe environment for the client?

Bill: We don’t leave a lot of money on the table by not being open that late. We're not open past--

Rebecca: And we haven't. We've been open 'til one, two, three, four; most of our competition, which I don't ev--

Bill: We're not open until four. When have we ev--

Rebecca: No, at times, we've tried--

Bill: Only if we had a client here. We--

Rebecca: No, we--in the past, we've tried different hours.

Bill: We never tried staying open until four in the morning.

Rebecca: I think three was the latest.

Bill: No, we tried until one. When we've had special clients, we've stayed open. We've never tried to stay open 'til three or four in the morning.

Rebecca: I think that one time we stayed open until--

Bill: We may have stayed open for a special client. We never set our hours until three, because we know that two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning is when the crazies come out in life. When you're in a bar, you see the drunks, you see the guys doing blow at that time.

DS: Is it usually appointments, or is it walk-ins?

Bill: Always appointments.

Rebecca: No, it's always appointments. Always appointments. Even though we do have clients who know us very well who will come up and say, "I'm sorry, I was in the neighborhood . . . ."

Bill: Right, right. That's true. That's true.

Rebecca: But I have--

DS: You make exceptions for certain clients.

Rebecca: Right.

Bill: Even then, what percentage would you say that is?

Rebecca: It's nothing.

Bill: Like what percentage? Give him a percentage he could go on.

Rebecca: It's very, very small.

DS: Is that because their desire--when they have a desire to come here--it's usually something that they plan out?

Rebecca: It's because honestly, they're so respectable.

Bill: I guess that's the point. The people that come here--[you wouldn't hear screaming; you might hear they’ve got a big spanking going, but they have money. We're not getting the sociopathic group--pathological group--they probably wouldn't have the money--the people, the maniacal crazies--they're not going to have the money to come up and do this type of session. If they would like to come here a second, third and fourth time, they know how to behave and fly straight.

Rebecca: Well, we in turn treat them well. What has been printed out from that script.

Bill: But David's question is very interesting. And your question really is asking another question. How dangerous, how heavy is this?

DS: If I went to a Taco Bell and I said, "Can you name a dangerous situation?" they would say, "Oh, that time I got held up." So I guess I'm curious about a threatening situation that you might encounter or have encountered.

Bill: And I guess that's the interesting thing. Given what we do, it's probably not as threatening as Taco Bell. In the first place, we had all sorts of bolts and deadbolts on the door.

Rebecca: Right.

Bill: I mean, it’s like Fort Knox. I mean, you can get hurt anywhere.

DS: Sure. Sure. But all that aside, what would be a threatening situation that you've had to handle?

Bill: Has anybody ever attacked you with a gun or a knife--

Rebecca: No, I mean--

Bill: Have we ever had to call the cops on anybody?

DS: Have you ever had to kick somebody out?

Rebecca: No, I've said to people, "Listen, I'm going to ask you to leave," and they'd be like, "Okay, fine." I--

DS: Why have you had to ask people to leave?

Rebecca: Um, because they're being obnoxious. Because they're--but I do think having the dog with me has made things--

DS: It's preventative.

Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah. I've always had the dog with me.

Bill: You didn't have the dog in the other place always.

On S&M burnout

Bill: But back to the room. I don't want them going into a threatening room, and looking around and seeing threatening black, dark objects that you would just think, "Oh, my God--"

DS: The seven circles of Hell . . . .

Bill: Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca: We used to have a lot of S&M pictures, and we thought it was not good for the girls or the guys--

DS: Why would it not be good for the girls or the guys?

Bill: Rebecca and I both like to sleep at night and feel that we have a good conscience. We don't want to burn anybody out. I don't want anybody working here and in a bad position when they leave. I tell them right before I hire them, ‘You know, I'm open to the exchange. When you leave here, I'll meet you somewhere. I always tell them, I'd like to be able to buy you a meal or a cup of coffee at the very least somewhere, and hope that you'll take something out of here.’ What happens is, they get so involved with this stuff and so quickly that they it’s like they just overfeed on it. And they--

DS: --need a break?

Bill: I don't want them looking at a pair of stilettos and this and that--they see enough of it. What I call "Hairy Ass Syndrome." What that means is a girl can only look at so many hairy asses until after a while you want to, like, explode!

DS: Give me a smooth one.

Bill: Or give me no ass, give me a Disney film!

Rebecca: You have to know, most other people that own these type of places don't think about it.

Bill: They really don't.

Rebecca: No, they don't. They don't care.

DS: Are there people who would not be attracted to this kind of an environment, that want the crazier--

Bill: Yeah, oh yeah, sure. They want the, uh--the hardcore crew.

DS: And probably so you wouldn't see them, but you'd probably have an idea about the--

Bill: We have--I'll call the black room. We have that room for them that looks heavier. And we have girls that--

Rebecca: I want to tell you. We also have girls that work at other places, like Jada, and the girl who said, "Hi, nice to meet you." And she's a darling girl!

Bill: You might wanna talk to some--see--

DS: Yeah, I'd love to talk to them, too. What's their average length of employment?

Rebecca: It's usually pretty long.

Bill: We have one girl that's been--how long has Tracy been here? Ten years? Eleven years? There's nowhere to go if they leave here. If you want to stay in the industry--

DS: Is it usually a temporary job, until they move on to something else?

Bill: Yeah.

DS: Like "I'm putting myself through school."

Bill: Well, no, probably most of our girls are post-college.

DS: Paying debts down?

Bill: I guess.

Criticism of BDSM

DS: Some critics of BDSM say that it encourages domestic violence.

Bill: When they talk about BDSM, they have no idea what the real world of BDSM is all about. They are maybe the way you were before you came in here. You researched it a little; I don't know if you watched a few movies; I don't know if you went online to see what you could find out about BDSM. They get a very, very skewed, incorrect view of what BDSM is. That's the problem in our world. If you go to a mainstream, Hollywood movie and they include a minute of it—it’s usually all wrong.

The critics of BDSM--it's not like being a critic of pedophiles. You pretty much know what pedophiles do. How does a critic of BDSM learn what BDSM is all about? And how do they substantiate that it promotes domestic violence? That's what I would love to know.

DS: And you don't think it does.

Bill: I think on the contrary. You know what I think? I think that if somebody comes in here--let's say I want to beat my wife. My big, fat, two-hundred-and-forty-pound, tub-of-shit, fat-assed wife. I come in here, and I find somebody that will allow me to spank them to the degree that I--they will allow me. And maybe I meet in the middle somewhere. Maybe she's a hundred and twenty pounds and beautiful; I'm willing to say, you know something? I'll spank you a lot less hard than I'd like to spank my wife. My feeling is that they're not going to go spank that girl and go home and beat the shit out of his wife. I think they're going sublimate it that way. I'd love to see literature somewhere that has any kind of data that will illustrate that people that enter into a BDSM relationship are more likely.

Rebecca: I think the true pedophile knows he can't do it to little girls, little boys. I mean isn't it proven that even though they try to make them stop liking it, they can't stop liking it. If you like ice cream, you like it, and you're just not going to be able to stop liking it, no matter how many drugs, how many things they do to you. So if they come in here, and a woman is wearing a skirt and maybe a ponytail or pigtails, and he's able to act out his fantasies that way, is that not a healthier release than to go out and maybe--

Bill: --there's different theories in aggression and violence--they're polar opposites. One of them is you have a child, and you teach the child that when they're angry, you take this plastic bag and beat the living shit out of that dummy outside. The child's learning at an early age how to associate the violence with the hitting and sublimate his violence. But how's he sublimating it? By hitting. As we get to be adults and we learn how to sublimate it, we're able to draw a conclusion, "Hey, I'm hitting the dummy." But it feels good to get it out, which is why--

Rebecca: Right.

Bill: --you look like maybe run-- do you do some athletics?

DS: Yes, some.

Bill: Okay. You look like you're in nice, good shape, flat stomach. You feel angry, you feel aggressive, does the gym help you?

DS: Yeah, sure.

Bill: Why would you push those weights around and pull 'em and curl 'em and then take a weight and smack a girl on the head with it? In other words--to use a very lay term--you are getting it out of your system to a point. Now can I categorically say that somebody can come in here and get it out? No. But I really, strongly believe that people who do this are much less likely to commit a violent act. It's like when a guy ejaculates--orgasms--the brain fuel subsides. The fantasies that he might have prior to masturbating, after they masturbate, they subside. So, if a guy can do this once a month, once every month and a half, once every six months, and let's assume he is a pedophile--

Today in History
1383 – King Ferdinand I of Portugal died without a male heir to the Portuguese throne, resulting in a period of civil war and anarchy.

1844 – Millerites and members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church were greatly disappointed that Jesus did not return as predicted by American preacher William Miller.

1924 – The educational non-profit organization Toastmasters International was founded at a YMCA in Santa Ana, California.

1934 – Pretty Boy Floyd, an American bank robber and alleged killer who was later romanticized by the media, was gunned down by Federal Bureau of Investigation agents near East Liverpool, Ohio.

1962 – Cuban Missile Crisis: U.S. President John F. Kennedy announced on television that Soviet nuclear weapons had been discovered in Cuba and that he had ordered a naval "quarantine" of the island nation.

October 22 is Labour Day in New Zealand (2007); International Stuttering Awareness Day.

Quote of the Day

All thoughts, all passions, all delights,

Whatever stirs this mortal frame,

All are but ministers of Love,

And feed his sacred flame.

~ Samuel Taylor Coleridge ~

Word of the Day

beat around the bush; v

To treat a topic but omit its main points, often intentionally.

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2007-10-21T19:48:28